[T02] Putting Your Upstate New York Ancestor on the Map

Hello, everyone! I'm excited to present this new talk on Thursday afternoon! I hope to see you there! Feel free to post your New York map & survey questions here.

Frances posted this great Q in the chat: "Is there a map showing the parcels taken from loyalists after the revolution?"

I really enjoyed your presentation. Do you know if there is a map showing the loyalist property that was confiscated after the Revolution. I am particularly interested in area around Schenectady.
Thank you

Terrific Program.
I have ancestors who lived in Mass, fount in the war in NY and later settled in Herkimer and Oneida Counties. Would they have been give land for service in that area or would they have had to purchase it thought a Patent and what Patent might that be?

I am not aware of a comprehensive map showing the loyalist land that was confiscated. Sounds like a great research project!

If they served as Massachusetts soldiers, they would not have be eligible for bounty land in New York, even though they may have fought in New York. I suspect there was some confiscated loyalist land in present-day Herkimer County that may have been used for Class Bounty Rights but probably not in Oneida County. But even so, that land would not have gone to Massachusetts soldiers. Your ancestors would have purchased the land. There are multiple patents in that area, some Colonial, some State. I suggest you check on davidrumsey.com for Joseph Rudolf Bien's 1895 map of New York Patents & Grants map to see what patent covers which specific location in those counties.

Thanks so much. Looking forward to checking out the map.

Jan Leahy

I so enjoyed your session, and used your answer to a question to find the supposedly-missing land contract of my ggg grandfather and wife selling land in Western, Oneida Co. in 1835. (You were right, it was found by a keyword search for Herkimer Land, then selecting an Oneida film later.) They received $1100 for that land 6 November and paid $1550 for land in Philadelphia, Jefferson Co., NY 18 November. August 8, 1952 my grandmother's sister published an essay in the Watertown Daily Times (p. 14) describing how her great grandfather drove his cattle from Oneida to Jefferson and his son planted the willow switch near the creek on their new land, and how her father would whittle willow whistles for her each spring from those trees. Question: what route do you think they took, driving cattle all that way?

I'm glad you enjoyed the talk and found it useful! For the cattle drive - You know my favorite maps, right?? Go to www.davidrumsey.com and access Burr's Atlas of 1829. There's already a road system in place from Western to Philadelphia. If you use the Georeferencer button, you can see what modern route numbers these roads became. The route out of Western, north to Boonville, will vary a bit depending on exactly where they were in Western but let's guess Rt46. From Boonville to Martinsburg via Rt12D and Rt26. Martinsville to Lowville to Champion to Great Bend on Rt26. Great Bend to Philadelphia, perhaps on Rt26 to US11 or Rt26 to CR30, depending on where exactly in Philadelphia. That would be my guess.

Hi Skip. Love this topic! I'm going to make this a two-part question, but start with the main purpose of sending this. My 5th ggf sold land to who I believe was his wife's brother in 1779 in Ulster county. I think I FINALLY found the property on the map although no town was mentioned, just the lot number, but also mentioned it was 'on the next side of the Hudsons River.' However, reference was also made to the Baird Patent. I've done some research on this and have some background, but can't find any map that might have this patent shown. Any suggestions there?
The second question isn't so much about maps, but I'll ask anyway; If my ggf SOLD the land in 1779, there has to be a time he either was granted the land (but would he have been, if it was part of this patent?), or BOUGHT the land. I've been able to find land records for the other side of this family (the wife's family) dating back to the early 1700s, but NOTHING from this ggf.

Thanks!

Just an update: I believe I found this piece of land called the Baird's Patent, from a book "NY Colonial Manuscripts: Land Papers 1643 to 1803," AND was able to map it!

If this is too many questions you can let them go, but I have been wishing we could do a follow up class after I put into practice the session at the conference!
I have found the Western, Oneida Co. SALE contract of my Wm Powell ancestor from 1835, and it refers to 1818 and 1787 contracts for description. I found the 1818 contract. I think the 1818 contract is for 450 acres which were originally part of 2000 in the previous contract.
I found a potential land conveyance 1787 in Patents of New York (familysearch catalog) but not the right month; however the conveyance is to the right person, Pearsee. Question: were there 1787 land contracts that were not recorded in the Patents books? Familysearch records don't go back that far. Also, I am not sure which of several parcels labeled lot 2 I should be looking for. I've been using the Bien map you suggested, but the sale was 1835, 60 years before the publication of the map. I also have the 1829 Surveyor Gen'l's/Burr map (on nygenweb and also in Wager's book), Beers 1874 atlas, Bein/State Forest Commission 1893 from NYPL, 2 maps from LOC originally published by Brown, 1852, and Gillette 1858. Wager's book (p. 109-110) states that Lush and Lansing bought some of Fonda's patent. I'm starting to think I should look farther north to the land labeled Lush and Lansing. Question 2: I'm trying to find a good metes and bounds converter, but the websites don't work without a starting point. Any suggestions? A cornered beech tree or a bass wood tree is what I've got! Should I call or email the New York State Archives, or the Surveyor General's office, if such a thing still exists? Google books tells me that the state engineer's office published a list of all their maps in 1911, and I think a useful map is on that list. Where do I find those maps? https://www.google.com/books/edition/Annual_Report_of_the_State_Enginee…

Thank you for referencing this book! I found it on archive.org and I have been looking through it to find sources to help me find that piece of land in Oneida county. Do you know where the documents referenced in the book are currently? I have found several things I would like to read in the "calendar".

Hi Margie - Sorry for my slow response and kudos to you for finding at least one important resource to early Patents - O'Callaghan's Calendar of Indorsed Land Papers, 1643 to 1803. As mentioned below, besides reprints of the hardcopy book, you can find it online digitally at Internet Archives and other sites. As to a map showing Baird Patent, this is where my suggestion of Googling "Map of ____ Patent New York" comes in. The top hit I get from that is this digital map at the Library of Congress http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.gmd/g3804n.la000535 This shows Baird Patent in the lower right quadrant. Note that the top of this map is westerly direction.

The patent and likely earlier sales of portions of it, including when your ggf BOUGHT the land would likely have been in the Colonial period but those are generally still recorded at the county level (just keep in mind boundary changes). That said, not all deeds were recorded and some were recorded long after the actual sale.

Hi NYtrees! The book is generally referred to as "O'Callaghan's Indorsed Land Papers" and it is an abstract of the New York State Archives Series A0272, "Applications for Land Grants," a 63 volume set of documents available to the public on microfilm in the Reading Room on the 11th floor of the NYSA in Albany. The patents themselves are also at the NYSA but in Series 12943, "Letters Patent." That series contains 105 volumes and is also on microfilm on the 11th floor.

Question 1: were there 1787 land contracts that were not recorded in the Patents books?

> Yes. Some parcels listed as patents in the State period were actually just purchases direct from the State through the Land Commissioners. Many of these were recorded with the New York Secretary of State. Private sales could also be recorded with the Sec. of State and a lot of speculator sales are recorded here, too. These are held at the NYSA in Series A0453; 43 volumes covering 1659-1890, on 20 rolls of microfilm, available for use in the Reading Room on the 11th Floor of the CEC. Important related series are: Series A3074, Abstracts and indexes of deeds, indexes this series by grantor, grantee, and location. Series A4688, Grantor index to deeds and other miscellaneous documents recorded or filed by the Secretary of State, indexes this series by grantor. Series A4689, Grantee index to deeds and other documents recorded or filed by the Secretary of State and Office of General Services, indexes this series by grantee.

Question 2: I'm trying to find a good metes and bounds converter, but the websites don't work without a starting point. Any suggestions?
> A starting point may be allowed but should not be required. Try just skipping that entry and go straight to the first direction/distance. I tried that with legallandconverter.com (not endorsing the product, it was just the first result when I googled “metes and bounds plating online free.”) and it worked fine.

Question 3: Google books tells me that the state engineer's office published a list of all their maps in 1911, and I think a useful map is on that list. Where do I find those maps?
> That book has been heavily annotated by hand and expanded in the NYSA’s reference shelf in the Reading Room on the 11th floor. The book is referred to as Mix’s Maps. The first half of the maps listed are held by the NYSA as Series A0273 and many have been added to the NYSA Digital Collection. The Digital Collection number is the same as in the book you looked at and can be searched easily For example, Map 76 in the book is Map of Funda’s or Fonda’s Patent, NYSA_A0273-78_76. This can be found here: https://digitalcollections.archives.nysed.gov/index.php/Detail/objects/… The other half of the maps listed in Mix’s Maps are held by the Office of General Services (OGS) put in the Corning Tower (I think on the 25th floor.) They are harder to access and I have not yet tried.

Thanks, Skip! For some reason, when I tried that Google search technique, nothing came up for me. And on LOC, it was apparent I was looking in the wrong area for that Patent. This map is MUCH better than what I had found! Now, I'm going to come back to my question about where I could find when my 5th ggf, John Crothers, bought the land he sold in 1779. Based on the fact that I've been able to find land records for his wife's family, going back to 1711 (wow, wow, wow!), it appears that there is no listing of a purchase by John of the land he sold in 1779. I do think I'll consider if perhaps the buyer (his brother-in-law) might have recorded it later, or perhaps it was listed in some probate. BUT, my question is this: If I'm not finding it in the indexes of records, is there any benefit at all at trying to find this in the PHYSICAL records in NY?? Would there be any indexes NOT digitized? Or some other resource I haven't considered?

Hi Margie - Your point is well taken. If it's not in the grantor/grantee index, somewhat randomly looking in the deeds themselves is unlikely to payoff BUT keep in mind four points: first, grantor/grantee indices often include "et.al." and "& others" entries, particularly related to distribution of estates and quit claims where there are multiple heirs. O'Callaghan's Calendar of Indorsed Land Papers does this too. If it was the brother-in-law listed first on the deed, it may not be indexed under the surname you are expecting/looking for. Second, I've seen some really wacky continuations when an index page fills up. Usually there is a note at the bottom like "Continued on p.663" but not always. If you aren't finding what you expect, be sure to compare the listed dates to the purported range of the index. If the book is supposed to cover 1793 through 1859 but the listed names only cover 1793-1824 (or 1825-1859), there might be another index page you have missed. Third, we've all seen census records mis-indexed. It happens in land records, too. Consider alternate spellings AND mis-readings. If you can narrow the likely target period down to a manageable amount, you may want to consider searching the deed book page-by-page. Fourth, while it's not a factor in your situation, many times we need to be sure we have considered changing county boundaries, e.g. what is now a place in Oneida County, may have previously been in Chenango, Herkimer, Montgomery, Tyron, or Albany County, and thus have bee recorded in a different county's record books. The Atlas of Historical County Boundaries is my usual "go to" source on that. You can find that here: https://digital.newberry.org/ahcb/map/map.html#NY.

One other approach that may be applicable for you and Baird's Patent might be to try tracing the chain of custody the other direction, that is, start with all the patentees and see who they sold their lot(s) to, following the spreading lines of transfer.

Another approach I often am slow to pursue (because fewer records are digitized) is to check for mortgages.

Good luck!

Wow, thank you so much! This is very helpful. Now I need to figure out when I can get back to Albany!

Skip, Thank you so much! I agree with NYTrees; more webinars on land records, particularly more advanced classes, would be wonderful. I stopped trying to use an index on FamilySearch, looking through their index books instead, long ago, lol. Because there's so much variation in spelling, when looking for a particular person, I've gone through ALL the particular letter, like all the "C's." But I hadn't considered that he might just be a signee and not included in the hand-written indexes. I need to check my log to make sure I haven't missed any mortgage lists, too. But I didn't have that link for the Atlas of Historical County Boundaries! And your other suggestions are definitely worth exploring. Thank you again.

NYtrees, I've been re-watching some of the sessions and in watching Jane Wilcox's session again on Colonial British & Loyalist Records at the NY state archives, AND in Monica Gray's Divorce & Guardianship in 19th C NY, I caught them saying that by contacting the Archives, and knowing exactly where we would like them to look, that they will search for us. I'm clear across the county, so going to Albany really isn't on my agenda any time soon.

Wowie! Doing "clean-up work" today on the NYSFHC sessions I want to re-watch and found the link to the Fort Plank map site in the handout. What a trove! I'm really looking forward to spending time with these maps. Looking (probably in vain) for land owned by a post-Rev settler in Tribes Hill, Montgomery County--right across from Schoharie Creek. But, even if I don't find him...they're maps. And fun.

Lucinda,
what is your ancestor's name? I've been through these volumes of land records so much since the conference I feel like I'm starting to get to know all the settlers!

Thank you, Skip. His name was Eli (Ely) Barney. Married to Elizabeth (Betsey) Rice. Both from Connecticut via NYC. Paid taxes in Town of Johnstown [different boundaries] 1799-1803 on "house and lot". Son John was baptized in Caughnawaga Reformed Church in 1796. Eli is one of my more interesting ancestors. After starting a family and, according to family lore, a wagon making business, Eli left Tribes Hill in 1809 to scout out land in the Genesee Country. Unfortunately, he died in Geneva on 11 Sep that year [Geneva Gazette]. Family lore (again!!) says "of fever and ague". Much more info than you asked for...but I just love telling the stories. Ring any bells?

Oops! Thank you NYtrees! Sorry I mistook the sender.

Just FYI - Keep in mind that those tax lists that indicated some variation of "lot" did not always mean the OWNED the lot. In many cases for leasing (and for articling land with a land company) obligated the occupant to pay the tax as if they owned it, even though they did not. Certainly worth looking for them in the land records but not a guarantee they actually owned it. Good luck in your quest!

Thank you, Skip. (BTW, this was one of my very favorite sessions from the conference!)

No, that doesn't ring any bells, but I'll keep my eyes open! Have you looked at records in each county the land has been designated as part of over time?

Thanks, Lucinda! This was a brand new talk I created for NYSFHC. I really enjoyed giving it and I'm delighted you enjoyed it, too!